Do We Still Need Women?

<p>In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore whether advances like artificial wombs fundamentally threaten the necessity of women in society. We analyze how the maternal instinct shapes female psychology evolutionarily.</p><p>We also cover the interplay of sexuality, submission rituals in both secular and religious spheres, the plausibility of multi-gender futures, and whether tension between genders creates cultural dynamism. Ultimately we contend traditional pair bonds seem deeply embedded in human drives. Losing women would sacrifice aspects of the human experience.</p><p></p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> [00:00:00] these submission rituals that you see within these you know, BDSM communities and stuff like that, Very similar rituals sort of co evolved in many religious communities.</p><p>Hmm. Whether you're talking about, you know, ultra</p><p>Orthodox Jewish Teflon, Catholic Opus Dei, like whipping thing and stuff like that.</p><p>And I don't think that any of this is because these cultures have been influenced by sexual cultures. I think it's that both represent extreme forms of submission and that extreme forms of submission, whether they be to masturbate a feeling instinct or to show supplication to... a genuine great power are going to have some degree of co evolution,</p><p>Would you like to know more?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> So, you guys might know this from our other content. I'll talk while you're getting ready. But that we don't use heating in our house in the winter because we believe in extreme frugality.</p><p>Like, suffering edifies the spirit, everything like that, you know? But! Last year when she wasn't pregnant, she was wearing a [00:01:00] Russian that she bought from, like, somewhere in Siberia where she could get cheap.</p><p>You know what I'm going to do? I am going to, I'm going to share a picture with our audience because this is just too much. But what she has done and you can talk a bit, how you came to this, you know, we're talking about pragmaxing in life. What you did is you said, okay, so first.</p><p>You know, where do people live in really cold environments? And then you got these, these, these sew suits that make you look like a, somebody who should be called Natasha. Like a James Bond villain or something. And now because you're pregnant, you can't wear them anymore. And so she's like, okay, when did people have to deal with pregnancy and cold environments without heating?</p><p>And so she went back and took inspiration from medieval outfits. And I'd love it if you could talk a bit about how your layering process works with this.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah it's, it's brilliant. I, I think this is much better maternity wear. One, because actually when you go back to, I mean, before the industrial revolution, everyone just kind of wore the same outfit all the time.</p><p>So your outfit had to grow with you. If you got fatter, if you got thinner, it would have to grow with you or shrink with you. If you got pregnant, it would have to grow [00:02:00] or shrink with you. So I was like, Oh yeah. then probably the best clothing I should wear for changing sizes is clothing from a different age.</p><p>And so, for the winter to stay warm, I'm basically wearing like thermal underwear and over that I'm wearing a chemise. And I have a, like, I guess you could say it's kind of like a a corset or stays and then a long skirt and then a really heavy wool coat. And it just feels great. So, I think.</p><p>Much better maternity wear than the gross stuff that most women are forcing themselves to wear while they get</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> larger. And a great thing about this is you can wear it pregnancy after pregnancy and year after year and day after day because this is a type of clothing that's designed to be worn almost every day.</p><p>Yeah,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> it's super durable, it's very practical, and it's extremely comfortable. So, highly recommend it.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> With just changing out the underlayer, obviously. But, okay, so... I am going to prime you with something that happened to me at this art conference we went to, which is like a conservative [00:03:00] Davos thing that was hosted by like Jordan Peterson and Louise Perry.</p><p>Anyway, in the UK, the conservatives are quite different than the conservatives in the US. They are more like small C conservatives and the feminist side of the movement is much, much bigger there because turfs make up a big part of the conservative movement out there. Anyway, so I was talking to them about, oh, you know, the.</p><p>IVF, artificial wombs, stuff like that. And this one woman just lost it. She goes, what? Artificial wombs are the most evil thing ever. If we have artificial wombs, what's even the point of women? Nothing could be more anti feminist than an artificial womb.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Hold on. Wait. A feminist woman. Thought that the only point of women was gestation.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Well, keep in mind, and this is actually really interesting, so these women in this conservative movement, they have a very conservative view of what a woman's role is. Have kids, care for the home, care for the kids, right? Is that feminist? Well, it's not. This is [00:04:00] TERF feminism. It's a little different from what we think.</p><p>It's a female focused agenda, but, and, and, and, excuse me, Simone, this is a good win for women. Women really talk themselves out of a pretty good position. Today, we're like, oh, it's so anti feminist to say women shouldn't have to work and just stay at home all day with modern appliances caring for like two measly</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> kids.</p><p>In a modern age, in a modern age, the idea of, of women as gestational managers and parents is actually pretty cush. I mean, in the, in the old age, like in, in the ages of the clothing that I'm like mocking, you know, women died at childbirth at really high rates. It was actually a pretty risky profession.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> We've repeatedly seen this from women in this, this aspect of the conservative movement. You know, just horrified by, by artificial wombs, making women less. Necessary in the way that they define what womanhood is. And this moment was really interesting to me. Because what it demonstrated to me, like, I was just trying to, like, think [00:05:00] about actually what her mindset must be to be worried about this.</p><p>Yeah. Which is to say, Yeah, we could, with artificial wombs, create a society in which you don't need women at all. But why is that a bad thing? Like, you, woman, you can have boys. You know that, right? Like, and these boys are part you, right? It showed to me that she identified more with her gender than with her culture, or family line, or even own children.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Well, but it also demonstrates a pretty significant amount of hatred towards women, because if you think that the only reason women are kept relevant in society is because they have gestational gatekeeping ability, that, and then when that goes away, when, when basically men no longer have to depend on women for wombs, the assumption is that like women will completely lose their position in society implies that she doesn't think women have.</p><p>[00:06:00] Any other value that, like, they don't contribute these ideas.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> That On. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit you with something that you have told me before, uhoh because you have said something that counteracted this before. Okay. You agreed with a friend of ours who said this Okay. Where she was like, you know, with trans people sometimes being able to do femininity much better than women.</p><p>Yeah. What's even the point of women anymore? Yeah. And this was the context of like, okay, if you, and this is true, like when I hear that somebody, a woman in Silicon Valley is running a successful startup. Yeah. The first question I'm always going to be like, you mean a trans woman, right? Or when I hear a woman in Silicon Valley has a really high, like coding position at Google, it's like, you mean a trans woman, right?</p><p>And it's almost, it's like 70 percent of the time they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, trans woman. And. One of the things that you had pointed out about trans women is that when they are in a privileged position of being able to pass, they can focus much more on feminine displays than even [00:07:00] women can because women have never seen things from the other perspective or been able to study it as critically and clinically.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Well, and also like when it comes to many of the things that women sort of struggle with, like, weight or like there, there's some builds that like basically someone starting from, I don't know, a male blank or a male starting point. You can actually have a really great look as a female when you like switch over to that.</p><p>So it's really hard for a woman to compete with her. Like, you know, depending on the look you're going for, like, You know, I feel like I've grossed under thighs and I would much prefer like men's legs to be honest. Like, so like, I think a lot of women are also like looking really jealously. She really</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> doesn't, by the way.</p><p>The</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> lean, slender bodies of, of men that transition successfully. And are just, you know, like insanely jealous. I mean, yeah, I, I do think it's, it's hard for, for women to compete with some, but I mean, I think that's also just a really. Pessimistic view of the value that women can bring to the table.</p><p>Like,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> okay. So I'm asking you objectively, [00:08:00] objectively speaking. Okay. So we're talking about the ways that women are different from men. Yeah. What are the things you think that on average women do better than men? And with each of these things, judge whether if you got rid of one gender, society would be worse off.</p><p>Go.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Oh God. I I'm, I'm not the most pro woman. Person out there. So my problem is like, all the women friends that I like most are probably on the spectrum and thereby are kind of less female in many ways because they don't do a lot of the social games that I can't handle. And. I, I find interacting with like traditionally, like hormonally normal neurotypical women is, it's really stressful.</p><p>So I'm not the best at it. So you have</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> antagonism towards neurotypical women more broadly?</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Well, I think my problem is that like, I want to interact with [00:09:00] people who speak plainly. Who, who say what they feel and are straightforward about things. And with, with many neurotypical women that both you and I interact with, I feel like I, I cannot win because I don't speak their language.</p><p>And they're playing a game and I'm not, and then somehow I'm insulting them by not playing this game. And that's really stressful for me, and then I, you know, I feel like we've lost some friends because of that, because I can't play their games, and that makes me really sad, because we've known a lot of cool people that, that I can't be friends with, and so I miss all my, you know, But,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> with that being the case, Wouldn't our cultural group be better if we were all men?</p><p>So I don't, I don't, I don't believe this myself. I'm just asking hypothetically.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. I mean, okay. So I, I'm looking at two, when you said that I, I sort of viewed two realities. One, I viewed like the free radical problem, you know, sort of like a lot of like high testosterone uncoupled men who are like, you know, just high risk, high rewards.</p><p>It's just like sort of, you know,[00:10:00] complete. Anarchy, violence, you know, just, just a mess, right? Like, I don't, I don't like that. You know, I, I don't really want the bronze age mindset reality of, you know, raiding and everything, which I guess is actually less fun when there are no women to rape and pillage.</p><p>Right. But whatever. And then I view the other, the other world, which is just like complete. Gay anarchy, just like orgies, like super hot men everywhere. And then I'm like, oh, okay, like gay world. This sounds really fun. Like sign, sign me up for that. Yeah,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I mean, presumably you'd be able to control people's sexuality in this world.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. And I feel like a world full of gay men is a happier and more functional, lower drama world. Than, than a</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> world full of gay men is a lower drama world. Yeah, I mean,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> yeah, I mean, there's drama, but it's not toxic drama as much if you know what I mean.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I know what you mean, I know what you mean, I just thought that was a funny statement, come on.</p><p> wEll, here's another path we could go, something that came up in the [00:11:00] Razeeb episode that we shared recently, and we've talked about in a few episodes, is the concept of the Tylexio. Oxiodle tanks, right? Which is, you wouldn't even need oxiodle tanks. You could just replace women with artificial women.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Define for our audience oxiodle tanks. Oh,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> it's, it's essentially degraded, if you're looking at the original series and not the weird things his son wrote in the Dune universe it's what happened to the females of the Tleilaxu population, like, like, and not individual females. These are genetically engineered beings that are based on a female template that are meant to make artificial wombs easier to operate through connecting to, like, their bloodstream and their original reproductive system, but they just use them to churn out lots of people.</p><p>They don't have, you know, sentience or much consciousness. They're just sort of like blobs connected to tanks. Now, alternatively, the Tleilaxu men... Are designed to look more like I'd say older children.</p><p>So let's say [00:12:00] people who are like 15 or something like that kind of like elfish and a little impish.</p><p>So the idea being is that if you have this much control over the future. Like, and you're choosing an iteration of male that you are freezing us at, or an iteration of female, would you freeze us at young men or would you freeze us at old men? Because you talk about this like bronze age pervert world.</p><p>Obviously you're not going to get a bronze age pervert world if you have like a bunch of sociopathic, high IQ, 15 year old men. I mean, I</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> don't know. You have largely been</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> sterilized Ah, ah, like they don't, they don't feel sexuality at all.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. So, so what is, what is the ideal?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Well, I mean, okay, I'll ask the question in a different way.</p><p>Okay. What if we just got rid of sexuality altogether? Like if you I. Would you, do you think like an iteration of humanity would be better if you bred them to not have any sexual drives at</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> all? You know, I think sexuality really doesn't, and this sounds stupid to say now that I'm saying it, but doesn't play [00:13:00] that huge of a role.</p><p>I mean, I think it's sexual dimorphism that plays a bigger role in, in just sort of the day to day way that men and women react differently to scenarios that, that women are. Are reacting based on very different internal models based on different on average tendencies than men. And, you know, obviously sex drive is huge, especially for men with high levels of testosterone, less so for women on average.</p><p>It shows up in different ways, of course you know, more like dominant submission interest, which of course can also play into the politics that freaked me out so much and make me less comfortable around women. Right. But. I think it's those issues and not necessarily sexuality, which is something that actually came up in our book a lot, that like, in the end, so much of sex is not at all about sex.</p><p>It's about how you view yourself. It's about your, your identity. It's about how you're validating yourself. That the actual act itself is, is kind of,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I agree with everything you're saying was one caveat. I think a lot of female behavior, even the stuff that's [00:14:00] not just like born gendered is heavily influenced by their capacity as gatekeepers of sexual access to the extent that it's not sex itself that is causing this, it's just the way that human females are born.</p><p>They're the limiting factor. Yeah, and them being gatekeepers of sexual access gives them within open sexual marketplaces, or at least attractive women or women as a group, inordinate political power. I mean, I think that that's actually the big thing that women have used to their advantage within our existing political system.</p><p>Only insofar</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> as men have sex drives. And I think actually this is changing a lot as we're sort of entering an age of more sexless men and men who were just like, oh, you know what? Not going to care that much. Women are losing a lot of that power and that, and that dynamic is changing. So I don't know if that is as true today and certainly tomorrow.</p><p>As it may have been 20, 30, 50 years ago. Oh yeah.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> A lot of women screech over, over this. I, I, I also think that this is something worth pointing out from a male [00:15:00] perspective as well. And I, I just want to talk about like how insane it is because there are men who do this, who identify more with their gender than they identify with their cultural group.</p><p>Or children, or parents, or people, or country. Gender should be like such a low thing on the things you identify with. Now, I can understand why people identify with it, right? I think a core reason is, is we have like strong drives, and strong cultural precedient, precedent when we're growing up. Like in our 20s when we're determining who we are, what we think of ourselves to find a partner.</p><p>And the challenges that you face in finding a partner are going to be heavily, heavily, heavily gendered. And through that you will communicate and engage heavily with communities that are going to be heavily gendered and primarily complaining about the opposite gender, which is going to cause this level of identification during many individuals formative years.</p><p>It's just, I think, important that people. Like approach [00:16:00] this with some sanity, like, yes, things may be unfair for your gender. I get that, you know, but at the end of the day, as, as my favorite movie that we use at every episode here at the beginning says, we're in this for the species, boys and girls. It's simple numbers.</p><p>They have more. And this is what we talk about the, the enemies of, of, of pronatalism. Is, is that if you want to exist in the future, you've got to find a way to make it work with the other gender. And it's hard. It's hard, right? And, and, and things are unfair now, but I think approaching everyone from the opposite gender as if they're like an alien species and totally heartless is really going to create problems that I am saying this as a complete hypocrite, because I just sat here with a wife who already said, yeah, I think so much more like a guy than a girl that like actually girls scare me and I'm afraid to interact with them.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> I mean, I don't think that much like guys either. I just. I think like a blank. But</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I think that if we're [00:17:00] going with June references,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> mentat thinking cause you know, guys think super differently too. It's just that guys think in a much more straightforward and transparent way. And there, there aren't as many mind games in like hidden grudges and, and terrifying.</p><p>Like back channel things going on. So God, you know, unless you're a man in Dune, by the way, you know, unless you're, you know, what is it? Harkonnen. Yeah. Harkonnen. Yes. They're like the women of the Dune universe cannot, I mean, they're great, but stressful. Yeah, I, I just don't know. I, I feel like.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> sO I'm gonna, I'm gonna present you with a different idea here.</p><p>I think if you took sexuality out of humanity, if you took gender out of humanity, a lot of motivation for, I think, many parts of humanity that people instill as the highest parts of humanity, like art and music and culture, would disappear. Yeah, in fact we often mention, I often mentioned the Futurama episode on robo sexuality which would point it out.</p><p>That when [00:18:00] men could just date robots instead of women, the motivation for you know, it was like art, music, and then it showed men not being able to date other men, theater, disappeared.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> And What is what is that weapon with two rocks and a string in between? Or the rocks use their momentum to throw each other forward.</p><p>A</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> flail? flails, but you're generally talking about a flail, yes. Okay,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> so I think men and women act like a flail. Where like, there's tension between them but flying through the air, one gives Oh, you're talking about Ebola! Ebola? Yeah, okay, you know, that's a,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> that's a... Sorry, I thought you were talking about a flail is two balls tied to the end of a stick.</p><p>Ebola is two balls connected by a string that's used for tripping people. That's what I'm,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> yes, that's what I'm talking about. My brain! Useless</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> knowledge of weapons I'll never know, use!</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> I'm glad you play as many video games as I do. Well,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> the funny, well, I don't know, like, Ebola from video games. It's not used that frequently, but I love...</p><p>Guys would be like, these are things that literally every human in the world knows what they are, a bole and yet, [00:19:00] I bet like 50 percent of women have no idea.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> I mean, I knew what it was. I didn't know its name. But I do feel like there's this tension and interplay between men and women. But you know, you and I have the same philosophy about cultures.</p><p>We really think that variation and competition and tension. are incredibly useful. The disagreement is incredibly useful. The different mindsets are incredibly useful. So we would be against the idea. I mean, if anything, we would like there to be more genders than fewer genders. If anything, we should be like thrilled that there are all these additional weird genders.</p><p>I think our only problem with them is we think that they're performative rather than real. If they were real. And they actually did contribute genuinely different perspectives. We</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> would be stoked. Yeah, I think that's a, an interesting point. Yeah. And, and could that lead to more art? If you had more genders and more of a relationship drives other than just sex and</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> romance.</p><p>Yeah. Like what if we lived in the, omega universe, the Omegaverse. Oh my god, we gotta talk about the Omegaverse. universe where there are, [00:20:00] there are what, alphas, betas, and omegas. So there are like three genders. And it</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> creates all this. And they're all male, basically. So they, okay, I'm gonna see if I can remember this.</p><p>So they all present male. And alphas mate with betas. And when an alpha mates with a beta the beta, like they, they latch like a dog does. Like they're nodding. Is that what it's called? Nodding. Nodding, nodding yes. And they have to like stay together until they finish and they like have these, like heat periods and stuff like that.</p><p>And then like omegas can like transform into an alpha when they're around a beta. Or transform into a beta when they're around an alpha, depending on like what they're interested in in the moment. And it transforms the ways they relate sexually and like heat cycles and stuff like that. I strongly suggest if you're, if this sounds at all interesting to you, well, we can do another episode where, where I prep on it beforehand and remember actually all of this universe.</p><p>Cause I find this fascinating. It is fascinating. When the Gorian [00:21:00] world, I, we could also include that really interesting as well. This is a world just for people who are interested. So, there's these people who went and asked, okay, well, I think, you know, women. It seemed to have this, this desire to be submissive in, in relationships and males seem to be more likely have this desire to be dominant in relationships and like a normal person would be like, okay, well, let's like, try to craft like a new way to have like dominant men or something like that.</p><p>They were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's just go back to the way we did this historically and people would be like, Oh, you mean like a traditional, like taken in hand marriage? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, like, I want Conan the barbarian world.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. Like a, like a 1980s or 1970s sci fi traditional.</p><p>Yeah.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Where like they dance for men in their, their outfits and stuff like that. It's like part of like mating rituals and then do like bows and stuff. And there's all these rituals for how they interact. Because they, they wanted this world of submission dominance in tons of rituals, but they didn't [00:22:00] remember enough of our historic rituals.</p><p>So they just like borrowed them from this Conan like book series.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. Yeah. Like basically this, this sci fi series was the basis of what then became a weird, I guess you could say somewhat BDSM, but I'm a lot more intense subculture, which pretty much has disappeared, but there's, you can still find some like old forum archives.</p><p>It</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> was the</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> early internet. Yeah. And, and, and keep in mind, this is something that really like women got excited about. The people who are posting a lot are the women who are in these Gorian relationships who are enslaved to their master husbands. And I think, you know, ultimately the guys who were.</p><p>Agreeing to this probably like a decent percentage of them. Maybe 60 percent were probably a little put upon to have to do all this because it was like arbitrage plays. Well, yeah, I mean, like, yeah I mean, it was a lot of work. You'd have to like, you'd have to. you know, ritually like beat her up and you know, like do the rituals and all this stuff and like [00:23:00] know all the rules.</p><p>And I think for a lot of guys, they're like, dude, I just, I just want you to be happy. And I want you to love me. Whereas like when you're doing one of these, like, like big time ritualized taken in hand BDSM complicated instructions kind of relationships. I don't think that's what most guys really want. I think most guys just.</p><p>Want a supportive wife who loves them, and</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> then it's just a lot of work, and they're having to do to get even a simulacrum of that. Right. I, I, I love, it's like, guys are like, oh yeah, I want a wife who's submissive and breedable. I want a submissive and breedable cat girl wife. And then they get one of these 24 7 cat cosplay w w women.</p><p>You know, who's like, I want a 24 7 cat relationship. And they're like, okay, well. I actually am not that cool with you walking on all fours all the time, and I have to like, buy you food. Can we just like,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> play video games and order pizza, please?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah these, these types of relationships are actually an incredible amount of work to maintain.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah, yeah, and I think they're mostly for the submissive person. Like, in the vast majority of cases it [00:24:00] seems that these relationships really are for the benefit of the submissive partner, because really it's, it's all about kind of pleasing them and keeping them in line and I feel bad for the dominant partners who are put upon.</p><p>Yeah,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I I was looking at a 4chan post not long ago and some guy was like, you know, why do we even, like, do these things for our girlfriends when a girlfriend is just a B I T C H that we, you know, We sex our ex at times and we sleep with, yeah, we, we F. And a lot of young guys, I think they enter communities and they think that by saying things like this, they are signaling that they are like high status males.</p><p>And it's like, we know that almost no guy actually wants a girl like that. Like, us guys, I'm sorry we know that you're probably, 14 or 16 between that age range, if you're making claims like that because very few guys actually want that. Most guys just want somebody to, uh, care for them, and when they do want weird sexual stuff, they want it in an incredibly isolated environment.[00:25:00]</p><p>They, they, they don't want it to be part of their daily existence. And, and it doesn't, it doesn't make you look cool to say that. Like, what I think when somebody says that is like, oh, so you're like a Gorian or something. Like, you plan to have like a 24 7, like, taking in hand relationship where you're, you're, you're having to put up with all of these crazy rituals for this woman that you found because you convinced yourself that that's what you needed to do to be a dominant male.</p><p>So stressful.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah, I don't even I don't I don't think the vast majority of those men in those relationships any sort of like really heavy dominance relationship of this sort of like the weird nerdy sorts. Wanted to do it to be tough. I think they did it because a hot woman or a woman that was like. Of sufficiently competitive value to them really wanted it.</p><p>They're all the weird nerdies through</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> it. Yeah, they were all the weird nerdies through it. I'm sorry, I look at Andrew Tate playing with his sword. He's a nerd. He's a hyper nerd.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah, he's a nerd, but I think he, he just loves, he just loves being dominant. And I think he does, [00:26:00] he, he is one of those few people.</p><p>Who is maintaining frame in a relationship because that is what he lives by. It is, it is like truly his identity. He wakes up in frame. He goes to sleep in frame. Like he is frame again. Like he</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> is aware. I think he believes the quality of his life is the, the, the effectiveness of which he's maintaining frame within relationships.</p><p>Like that is what makes him a valuable person.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> I just, I, I, no, I think like hormonally he doesn't, he couldn't do it any other way. I don't think so. I disagree with</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> that strong. Oh, no, no, no. I think, I think, I think self perception wise, he couldn't do it another way. He has built up this self perception.</p><p>I think if I look at the way that he structured relationships and stuff like that, he actually shows a lot of creativity. Like he has like an interesting poly relationship where like his brother and him share a group of girls that live in like a house together. Like that is incredibly creative. Yeah.</p><p>Yeah. Yeah.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Do they share the women, or do they just have women at a shared compound, though? My</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> understanding is they share the same women.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Oh, wow. But they're [00:27:00] brothers. Yeah, so that's kind of traditional and kind of not, huh?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Yeah, no, I, I, and as you've, you've said tater tots before, I just gotta remember that.</p><p>The house is filled with little tater tots. Yeah. Little tater</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> baby. Cute little patterning feet. Yeah,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> no, I, I think it is hard to engage any of these And this is why I think they are all nerds, right? When you engage with a differential sexual subculture that's not just going along one of the traditional religious pathways you are going to you are going to differentiate from mainstream society.</p><p>And through differentiating for mainstream society, you will justly earn the title of nerd, or weirdo, or something like that. A really interesting thing that we can bring up in this video, we bring it up in our book, it's probably one of our most, I think, spiciest points, but people don't really dig into this that much, is that these submission rituals that you see within these you know, BDSM communities and stuff like that, Very similar rituals sort of [00:28:00] co evolved in many religious communities.</p><p>Hmm. Whether you're talking about, you know, ultra</p><p>Orthodox Jewish Teflon, which, like, anyway it's where they wrap tightly leather around their arms and stuff like that.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> If you're not familiar with it as an outsider, you're like, whoa, is this a sex thing? This looks like a sex thing.</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Yeah. Another one would be like the</p><p>Catholic Opus Dei, like whipping thing and stuff like that.</p><p>And I don't think that any of this is because these cultures have been influenced by sexual cultures. I think it's that both represent extreme forms of submission and that extreme forms of submission, whether they be to masturbate a feeling instinct or to show supplication to... a genuine great power are going to have some degree of co evolution, but it just looks very odd as somebody who likes studying both communities and is separated from both communities to an extent.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> Yeah. So do we need women, [00:29:00] not for gestation, not for making us happy, but for providing tension?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> Well, okay. I'll, I'll worry to provide tension. I think to provide motivation to men, I think as a guy, I would have a much harder time motivating myself. If I wasn't, but why do</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> men like women?</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> I don't know.</p><p>That's an interesting question. Like, why do I find it easier? Here's why. More immediate feedback. So I can work every day to try to make the world a better place or something like that, right? But I don't see immediate rewards for that. In fact, most of the world, you know, just hates me for it, right?</p><p>Because anybody who's trying to change things is almost axiomatically undermining the existing power structure in the world, which is Not in the best interest of those who are at the top rungs of that power structure. So they are going to attack me as evil. And that is what I get every day. And so I have to come home and...</p><p>I see your pride in me standing up for my moral values, and [00:30:00] I see you telling me, you know, how much you appreciate, how much work I'm putting into things, and everything like that, and that appreciation is I think something like at a biological level, I am cued into, and this is, I think why I say when guys are looking for a girl, the number one thing you're looking for is actually admiration,</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> appreciation,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> gratitude, the ability to have genuine gratitude for the things you do for them.</p><p>Do you not</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> think that like Andrew Tate and his brother Tristan and they're like a circle of friends are not supportive of each other? I mean, they may express it using different mannerisms, but I think that they're extremely supportive of each other. I</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> know, and I, and I mean this in a completely non derogatory way.</p><p>I want to highlight this, but like, if I did something for my brother's approval, it would feel real gay to me. And I don't mean this in like a gay is bad sense. I just mean something about doing something to make somebody else like proud of me. If that person is a guy, I don't know, it [00:31:00] feels sexual in a way.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> But not with a women, a woman, which is the, the gender to which you personally are attracted. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. So,</p><p><strong>Malcolm:</strong> so, so what I guess I'm saying and what I guess I'm realizing here is something about the desire to make you proud of the person I'm being day to day is sexual in nature. Or is coded sexually in my brain, because when I think about doing that for a guy, it's like, that feels a little gay.</p><p>In the same way you know, it reminds me of Pulp Fiction, when he's like, you know, would you give a one of your male friends a foot rub? The guy said, the foot rub's not sexual at all, and he's like, no, I wouldn't! And he's like, well then it is sexual, isn't it? Anyway, I love you to death, Simone, and thank you for the role you play.</p><p>In immediate feedback and appreciating who I'm being in the world. And this is also why we say the most important thing when you marry someone. So I talk about the skill, the, the, the trait gratitude. But when you're marrying somebody, what you're actually asking is not who is that person, [00:32:00] but is who does that person want me to become?</p><p>And are they able to help me become that person? Because if they wanted me, if Simone wanted me to become somebody who I didn't want to become, that would be terrible, right? Like she. I'm just married to her. I have to live as me and yet she transforms me so much. And I love some guys will be like, oh, that's such a beta thing to say that your wife influences you and that you care what she thinks of you.</p><p>And it's like, you, you don't look tough saying that. Like, I understand in your little community, you might think that that's a status symbol, but in the real world, that Does it look like a status symbol? It makes it look like you don't have anyone who cares about you,</p><p>which is not the flex you might think it is. Love it. Anyway, love you, Simone, and have a wonderful day.</p><p><strong>Simone:</strong> You too, husband.</p> <br /><br />This is a public episode. 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