May 20, 2026
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41:57Now PlayingGrub is the vice president of Black Power, one of New Zealand's oldest gangs. He went to prison when he was an MMA champion, and they put him in with the Mongrel Mob, Black Power's main rival. Grub spent his first year training with the mob on condition that they'd never use anything he taught on a Black Power member. They never did.
After 14.5 years inside, Grub came out with one priority: Keeping the young men he leads out of prison. He wakes at 4am, loads trucks by hand, trains Muay Thai, reads stoicism, and found Jesus on his own terms.
Peter Boghossian and Grub talk about what poverty produces, the problems with New Zealand's prison system copying America's, the challenges young men face, and what a behaviorist's chicken experiment reveals about every politician who thinks toughness on crime is a solution.
In collaboration with the Free Speech Union NZ
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