Sam Debates The Green New Deal With A Depopulation Enthusiast

A caller contends that the Green New Deal is not just insufficient to tackle climate change, it would do more harm than good. He says the only way to properly deal with climate change is to depopulate and deindustrialize the planet.

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Caller: I want to talk to you about the new green deal. and the green new deal has some real problems if you look at it in detail. and our modern kind of industrial society is built on steel, concrete, plastic, and ammonia. And you can't make any of those things with wind or solar. it's just engineering wise it's just not possible. and so in a sense, the green new deal is taking us away from what we need to do for anything sustainable. because you just look at the engineering and the numbers just don't work out well.

Sam: Now what do you mean in terms of like you can't get the temperatures you need to to create steel and and and plastic is that what you're saying?

Caller: Well you can't make plastic from petroleum as a material yeah the only way you could substitute that is with bioplastic. and some things that you can make like on a lab bench or on say a pilot plant scale you can't make it full scale. and I know this from your family experience. I might have the greatest drug for cancer and if I can make it at say the milligram scale or the kilogram scale it doesn't mean that I can make it up to the kiloton scale. there are a lot of non-linearities. That's the problem of bioplastics. and it's the same for concrete and it's the same for steel. you need temperatures that are so much higher than what you can get even from a nuclear power plant the numbers just don't work out. and for ammonia, ammonia comes from natural gas from the Haber bosch process; you just can't do it without natural gas. you need high temperatures and you need hydrogen. The only way you can get hydrogen without using natural gas is from some kind of electrolysis process and that's incredibly energy-intensive. and it's just a sad reality that the green new deal is just not going to get you to where you want to be. and I know that that's kind of shocking. You need kind of a great gateway drug to kind of understand this. and I think that the two best gateway drugs that I've found are Rachel Donald she has a podcast called planet critical. I think she's received from Ireland a real bonafide lefty. and Also, a professor named Nate Higgins. I think he's at the University of Minnesota. another bona fide lefty. you know if they're not shills for the fossil fuel industry or something like that. and if you follow them they give the best comprehensive view of the energy economy and environment that I've ever seen. plus psychology as well. and the green new gift is not going to get you there. well, I don't think that AOC has the engineering background or senator Markey has the engineering background to be able to see what can be done. not at a pilot plant scale but the ton scale gigaton scale of concrete steel plastic.